as Bikvanderpol we determine what we do ourselves, but at some point you get asked to react, you are invited somewhere, the exhibition is in three months or whatever and you have to come up with something. So that's quite fixed in a way. But I don't know how you work?
Well, it corresponds very well with the way I work. And I think that if we can make a concept, that's something we can deal with, in the time that we have. But the question is, should we sit here and make the concept or should we walk up the hill and look down, or something like that? In other words, get moving? Because I find I can't work like this. I don't know about you? But I have to walk somewhere and look at things that are not just ourselves. So that would be my proposal.
Alright.
For it's own sake I'd like to do that. I don't know if any ideas will come to me,
but I agree, regardless.
Do you mind if I come with you?
Yes. Please.
That means we can leave the small sound recorder behind if you are going to record us.
With the wind and the traffic you'll be better off without that thing. [the digital voice recorder]
I'll record you taking my photograph.
Multiple-ly
People taking pictures of people recording people taking pictures.
That's the way to do it.
[inaudible]
Mary, you keep asking me to restage everything!
Right, so what's so specific about this place? We should go up the hill. We should get a view down on this place.
Go left here.
It's very muddy there.
Can't we go up there?
Well you can, but it's very slippery. Its not ideal.
You probably need your boots to go into the woods. The path is pretty muddy.
There's another path further up because I got lost up there.
This road goes on forever. I drove up here when I arrived and it just gets steeper and steeper and narrower and narrower.
[sound cuts out]
We could be like those beggars that Soumhya talked about. We could just go knocking on people's doors and asking for ideas.
For an idea!
Shall we try it?
[laughter]
Who can do a local accent up here?
Not I. Bryony is the local.
Where are you from?
The Wirral
You're the professional enabler and facilitator.
Apparently!
Is this a real road?
It's a real road. And I tried to get through to go back to the chapel. I couldn't.
But which of you the point of having this thing is that rather than having a real jam session, a brainstorming session, we've got to say something intelligent. I don't know how I'll assimilate this event in my future work, or be changed by it. And I think you feel it's a really rich encounter Mary, but you don't know what to make of it either?
It's like an exploration. You take a road. You don't know where it's going. You don't know what you'll find up the road. So you just walk up it. Maybe there's nothing up there.
Nice object.
Very nice object.
Maybe that's the way we should go about it. Look for nice objects. Just make a collection. Put it in the bags.
[walking, traffic sounds]
An old church.
So are you doing this because you're a good citizen and you have to? Or do you always go around with a video camera?
Not always.
But often. Do you ever look at your footage?
Most of the time, not always. For example we did some travels with a group of architects in eastern European countries and filmed most of it. But didn't use it.
When you go to places with a camera, do you film straight away?
Do you mean with a video camera or a still camera?
Either, I guess. And you as well [to LT]? Because you said people started to associate you with the camera, you somehow became the camera.
It's obviously, like in a really small community where you are in mountains two weeks walk from the nearest road. For example like those two guys [shown earlier in film rushes] sitting outside having a conversation, then the camera becomes part of my identity, whereas if I'm down in a town doing something totally different or meeting people for the first time, the camera is a shock and they don't always...during lambing in the year 2000 I went there just to see, without a camera, or I had a DVD camera, but I didn't end up with [conversation continues mostly inaudible]
We can ask a local
Yes, lets ask a local. Excuse me madam.
[It turns out to be Anna Grimshaw]
Yes?
We're staying down there at the chapel and we're trying to find an idea. We're looking for directions towards an idea.
An idea, well don't ideas drop from the sky? Maybe you'll see one up there? No? I mean through all that mist and gloom and
And what's that there?
That could be one. See that, what's that factory doing up there? With that great big chimney, just there? In the middle of a moor. Isn't that weird?
Yes. Is that where we walked last night?
No, I think we walked up there.
Would you recommend going up this road for an idea?
You might find one. I went as far as the white house. There's a pretty amazing row of houses, you can just see the light there. I don't know if you'll find an idea there.
You wouldn't like to come with us and knock on the door and ask for one would you?
There are fields up there, let's keep going.
Yes, carry on. Good luck!
That's a good sign. At least our group is all together!
I was just talking to Lucien, he grew up in Manchester and Liverpool
Liverpool really. I grew up here in the summer.
and now lives in the States. I had a question for you Jos. Because you live in the Netherlands but you kind of work all over, but do you just stay in the Netherlands, or do you spend huge amounts of time in other places?
For sixty percent of the year we are not in Holland. And then when we are home we have to do basic work, meet friends, do administration, produce work also.
Where in Holland do you live?
Rotterdam
It's the most dynamic city in the Netherlands isn't it?
Yeah and its cheap. It makes lots of things possible.
So does anyone feel they've learnt anything?
Today? Or on the walk?
Today and yesterday
Learnt?
Yes. We all have obviously. Like in terms of my own work, artwork, I hardly see any other work, I just live in a little cocoon.
You never go to exhibitions?
Hardly ever, because I live in Boston and I have a day job and kids at home and never get down to New York or anything. And I like that in a way, working without that knowledge of what ever else is going on. But when I am exposed to stuff, like today, seeing everyone's work, I just feel inundated with ideas, so when we saw Rosalind's piece, Eyeballing, I responded to the structural rigour and precision and conceptual clarity. It just strikes me as amazing, and my own work seems so weak and threadbare and loose. Its like the aesthetics of it just seem so jumbled and incoherent and inchoate and not even existing. So when I'm exposed to artistic work whether I respond in any-which way, I find it incredibly instructive. But I can't think of ways in which my relationship to anthropology is morphed by I don't know. Maybe its because I'm already an anthropologist, so what about you Mary?
Well, I think it's great always to shift context and every time I shift context I see new things. It's just amazingly energising as far as I'm concerned to see the work of real artists, it's wonderful. So what have I learnt?
Can I point out something while you're thinking, [ ].
Looks like a bunker almost.
This area reminds me in a way of Devon because it's so depopulated, there's absolutely no body, anybody, anywhere.
In Devon?
Yes. When you go for such a walk as this. We might need to trespass to find people, I mean seriously, we might need to trespass on land. That always provokes a reaction.
So what does Amanda want from us? She wants some sort of collaboration between artists and anthropologists. And we are artists and anthropologists walking up a hill .backwards
Jordan Baseman is working at the museum at the moment and is going to be talking to Visual Anthropologists He tries to find people who are driven by something - Michael Jackson fans, collectors, aging rock stars. And he's made a lot of work that's caused real problems even for the people who commissioned it, so for example the Arts Council of England commissioned him to come and make work about them and work in their organisation and he interviewed lots of members of staff and presented a video afterwards and they said that they weren't going to show it. [inaudible]
Which way are you going? You just go all the way along the block there.
But what is it?
Just here?
Yes.
They're building a new house. The construction that was up there came down in the storm about a month ago. And it was just lucky it was at night time.
What was it made of?
Stone. There was no underpinning.
Do you live over there?
No, I'm just here stopping traffic.
Why?
Well, you can't get up this road here.
We're out looking for an idea. You're the first person we've met.
An idea for what?
That's what we want to know. So where do you live then?
I live in Sowerby Bridge
How far away is that?
Do you know Ripponden?
No.
Maybe 11, 12 miles.
So what's your job then?
I'm a bricklayer.
But they ask you to divert the traffic? Just for this afternoon.
Until the concrete comes again.
And how fast will that structure go up?
The point is because it came down in the high winds, its going to go through the council. There's only the front section left up now, so its not too bad.
So you'll be there tomorrow. And how many people work on that site now?
About eight
Could we come and visit you tomorrow and film you?
No.
[Laughter]
You're best to ask if you want to walk up there, past the cement lorry there's a bloke at the other side who's in charge. It would be down to him to let you do the filming.
Sounds good. Can I take a picture of you?
[inaudible]
You can look the other way.
I feel very uncomfortable having my picture taken.
Shall we walk on then and see what it is up there?
Yes, you can speak to Brian.
They are building a house that was blown down in the storm. He has to direct the traffic away. And we can come and visit tomorrow, if we want. We can talk to the boss up there who's called Brian. And there are about eight people working on this site. So it would be something to work on where we don't have conversations anymore about how we do it but where we do something and this is what I was looking for in a way. And this house was a stone building and it blew down in a storm, so it was recent and there's loads of bureaucracy to work through and they're going to fix it somehow. There are eight men working on this. So this is going to be nice kind of site and it's a group of people doing something isn't it?
Are you listening? There's a real old car. Or is it a van?
Hello there, are we lost?
We're a bit lost, we're looking for an idea.
An idea? What sort of idea?
That's what we want to find out.
Oh, I see.
What's this?
It's a Ford Transit mark 2.
Are you restoring it?
Not many of them left. I've had it 19 years.
Are you the first owner?
No, I'm the second.
You've got the engine out?
Yes, engine's under there.
Is it rusty Or?
Oh aye, its not good in places. It's quite rotten in places. No, I want to restore it to it's former glory. It's been me works van for 19 years. I just kept welding it up, welding it up and it's just kept going. So it's retired now. Engines fine.
How many miles has it done?
It's second engine is that. The van itself's been about 150,000.
Have you done all this work yourself?
Most of it. Yes welding mostly, not sure I'm going to do any more welding. I've been off work 12 months. I had a thrombosis, a blood clot in this eye.
In your eye?
Yes, and I can't see properly and I'm not sure welding's going to do it any good. I'll get somebody else to do the welding. It isn't welding that's caused this. I'm told its trying to regenerate itself. So he says don't give up hope yet, it is trying to clear, he says if it does, you're very lucky, they don't normally, so just hope for best really. Apparently it's the nearest thing to a stroke.
Really?
Oh yeah. Because it's a blood clot like. Asprin's the one. Hopefully it'll be alright one day. But it's been very depressing really. But these things happen don't they? It's life.
The building collapsed up the road.
Oh yeah, it all fell down! [laughing]
Was it badly built?
No. What they were doing - it were an old garage and they were making it into a house you see. But they were making it two storeys. So they were digging right down and they just dug the whole lot out and it collapsed. I thought they were going a bit mad at it. I didn't see it collapse but it were one Saturday night it went. And there were a police car and a gas van down here blocking the road. Because when the wall fell out it took a gas meter with it, so gas were all out, so oh dear. They were lucky because there were five people working in it earlier. I just think they dug too much out at once. And there was nothing to hold it back you know. So they've had to start from scratch again now.
So now they have to rebuild it totally.
So there's a lot of traffic comes up and down this road?
There's a lot of traffic coming up and down. They built 50 or 60 houses up in the village a few years ago and the traffic on this road is horrendous. Goes all day long.
Is this house for sale?
Next door was. I've been here all my life. I were born in that house up there, 57 years I've lived there. I can qualify as a local I think! No, its nice round here.
So where do you come from then?
I come from Holland.
I do too. Oh yes, but I'm English.
Very good.
Manchester, not that far.
So what you doing, a project or something?
Well, we're looking for an idea like I said. The best way to get ideas is talking to people.
It's a three-day workshop and today we were sent out and we have to look for something and to collaborate for the first time.
I see. So where are you based?
Do you know the chapel?
Oh yes, Birchcliffe Chapel.
Did you ever go to that chapel?
No. I went to the one further up, there's a smaller one further up the road here. There's only a handful of people who use it now like but I went there for a long time. When we were kids we had to go.
Was it like the one down the hill, did it have a submersion bath?
No!
So were there two different sorts?
Yes, that was a Baptist one down there, this is Methodist.
So what's the difference?
Further on, going down to Pecket Well, that's another Baptist one. That has a graveyard with it.
Is that unusual for Baptists?
No, not really. But that's not used now. I think the Historic Church Trust has taken that over, at Wainsgate. But there's nobody uses it much. It's a shame because it were a lovely church. They use it now and again for certain things but not often. This one had only half a dozen people to it they found other things to do on a Sunday.
Going to the Trafford Centre?
What's the difference between Baptists and Methodists?
I'm not quite sure honestly. Methodists were quite strict. They advocated no drink or anything like that. But I can't really tell you because I'm not that religious really.
But your parents and their friends were Methodists?
Yes, my family were all Methodists. I mean when you were kids you were made to go. You had to go, there were no choice. No football on a Sunday.
No?
No! You hadn't to play out with a ball on a Sunday when I were little.
And until what age did you have to go?
When I started work I stopped going then, because I went farming, so I hadn't time to go to church really. All work really. I weren't bothered because I'm not religious.
Where were you farming?
Just up here in village, we had an area there. We had 44 cows. Used to start six o'clock Christmas morning. We had 44 cows all to milk, all to clean out and then a milk round as well. And I used to finish work at 12 o'clock and they gave me rest of day off. Back again on Boxing day, so you had one day off at Christmas.
Were you working for someone else?
I was working for someone else. Six days for £35 a week.
When was it?
Well, I started for him in 1966. And I were there 12 years. It's hard graft is that.
But, put it down to experience. Or lack of it!
So what's the sticker about?
They were going to make a big wind-farm up on moor and they would have ruined it. And everybody were against it so it didn't happen. It may do one day. There were a big dispute over it, because all local farmers were frightened they would dig it up and spoil all the water supply. Once you start digging you can wreck everything. So it didn't happen.
When was the protest?
Ten year? It's going to be going on ten years.
So do they still want to do it?
Well, I haven't heard anything about it for a while.
Want to do it anyway, don't they, want to do a lot now. Over tops of buildings, they have a big wind farm over there.
I mean they're all right in the right place but if you have them on every hill top round Pennines its just going to spoil it. You live here for your views and you don't want it spoiling.
What's that factory that's on the hill, a bit further down? You can see a factory with a big tall chimney. When you come up this road.
Oh a bit further up? Yes, that's called Mitchell's Mill. That were a woollen mill.
And that closed down?
That closed down a long time ago. When I was a little lad.
But it was going until the 1960s?
Well, late 50s, late 50s I would think. And then there were another mill up here that started as spinning mill, a cotton mill and then that went on to asbestos. That's killed a lot of people has that, including one of me aunties. And I might have it yet. Because when we were kids it was all at sides of road. We used to throw it at one another and there were big extractor fans coming out off buildings because they made pipe lagging and they like pressed it in a mould and baked it. All air coming off it were lovely and warm and you used to stand under it. Yeah, and they used to dump it all round here
They had no idea?
They did, they did. They paid fantastic wages, fantastic wages, yeah, yeah. I mean where they mine it in Africa people just bring it out in open baskets on their heads, covered in it. Deadly deadly.
So they cleaned it all out?
Yes, they cleaned it all out and then they demolished it, got rid of it. Killed a lot of people has that place and still killing them.
The factory is paying the people?
Oh they've had compensation, most people have. But what a place, dreadful. But as I say, I've been in contact with it, so, you don't know. It's in your sixties it happens. If you've got it, you've got it. They can't cure you, you just die. Oh dear.
So what's underneath that? Another one?
That's a Rover V8. It's stood there for 14 years. I've owned it for twenty eight years that. It's all in bits. It were all rotten. I've welded it up. Wants putting back together. But when I were working I never had time to do them. But one day! One day. You've got to have your hopes even if they don't come true. It's all stripped down to a shell. Engine, gear box and such like. All the hard work is done really. Just wants putting back together and respraying, yeah.
It's quite a nice car.
It's quite a big car. It's an ex-police car. It were in Manchester. Because I used to take it to car shows. And I met a fellow there one day and he said that used to be ex-police didn't it? I says yeah, how did you know? And he said, I used to drive next one on to it. He recognised it from the number plate.
So you bought it from the police?
No, I bought it from a garage. That's been a good car has that. I've actually got a gas converter to put on it.
So you can run it on gas?
That will be a lot cheaper. Because my nephew had a Range Rover which he ran on gas, so he's now scrapped that but he's kept the conversion, so I can put it on this. That'll be cheaper.
You have another car?
That's a ford escort. I've sold it. I used to have a Morris Minor
OK
Customised.
Uh huh.
Fiat 2L twin cam engine in it. Beautiful motor. It were a belting motor that. Took me three years to make it. I widened all the wings and put special wheels on it and all sorts. Spent half me life in here!
It's a good place.
It is a good place, yeah. Central heating.
We could see it as we were walking up the hill, it looked beautiful. I thought it was a shop, it looked really homely.
So you built it yourself?
Yes, I built it all meself. Took a bit of making really.
So you spend a lot of time here?
A lot of time! When I were younger I used to be down here until ten o'clock at night.
OK.
So we're just walking on up the hill. Maybe we're too late to talk to the foreman, we have to speak to the man in charge up the road.
Oh, they might have gone now. They usually knock off about five, I don't know.
We'll come back again tomorrow.
Yeah.
OK, thanks.
Umm, I've spent a lot of time here.
[ ]
Nice to talk to you. Take care. Bye bye.
Hey Brian, are you using that concrete?
[Sounds of shovelling and a digger]
What's the idea?
Well that's what we are looking for you see, so we're just talking to people who are doing things.
For useage where?
Well, in a sort of - in a project were doing. It's kind of art.
Can you tell me more about it?
Well we're actually staying down the hill at Birchcliffe.
Birchcliffe?
Yes.
So you're roaming the hillsides gathering potential topics?
Talking to people, basically, yes. So it was a pretty interesting story that this house fell down and that you're rebuilding it.
Yeah, it wasn't a house, it was a garage. Very high winds knocked the wall out.
So are you building a garage again?
No, a house. It's a conversion of a garage into a house.
Is it quite a big house?
Umm, well, it'll be three or four bedrooms, not massive. So how long does your project last?
It's three days.
Three days?
We have to come up with something tomorrow.
Are you on a film project?
No, it's art and anthropology.
Art and whatery?
Art and anthropology. And we have to work together not knowing each other
That's right. We were sent out.
So how many people are working here then?
It varies. Anything up to on the biggest night there were probably about 12 people here. Generally speaking
So you work through the night?
It was dark at the time. No, we don't go through the night. Although we have worked pretty late. No, generally speaking through the day. That particular night we were pouring a load of concrete. That took a long time. But we work into the night rather than through the night. It's usually three, four, five or six people.
So that's the foundation of the house?
No, this is for parking.
But, if we wanted to come back in daylight tomorrow would that be OK? And just take some still pictures?
Well. I mean it depends a little on where it's likely to end up I suppose.
It won't end up anywhere very interesting.
It's not your house?
It's my son-in-laws and my daughters. You get people I mean this gate for instance here was left open and somebody complained too the council because the gate was left open and it wasn't delineating the side of the road properly. So, there is some reticence to actually go into film and the wider world because there's always someone who's potentially going to find a use for it, beyond your own use.
Who designed the house?
I did, I designed the house. I'm not an architect. A friend of mine did the main plan design. But I work in the arts so I understand it. Recognise that people have issues with [inaudible]
When will it be finished?
I suppose we should be looking towards August. The main structure of the house will be finished in the next two or three months and then there's finishing off and then all this work to do too.
Have you been lucky with the weather?
That's better than snow.
It's better than snow but the rain and wind was incredibly bad before Christmas, before you arrived in the country no doubt. Have you come from abroad?
Holland
What's the name of the course you're on? Oh you said..
Connecting Art and Anthropology
Art and anthropology.
Are you cold?
Yes, so maybe we have to go back now. But thank you for talking to us.
Bye.
Bye.
It was a nice walk wasn't it.
Lot of material to work with.
That's all you need.
So do you feel like you're just been an exterior documentarist or do you feel you're kind of part of this whole collective confabulation and you have ideas and have been provoked by it.
It's interesting because I'm listening to the ideas and discussion and what's happening, but I've been hired to do a specific job so I'm standing back a bit.